Constructing a D&D cartoon.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:58 pm

Magic music bards can work, but not as blasters and rarely as protagonists.

As villains or guest heroes of the week, though, they can be awesome.

Your archtypical magic music bard is the Pied Piper. He's the crowd-control mage. As a good guy he puts the entire tavern to sleep, allowing the heroes to get the macguffin without bloodshed. As a villain he mind-controls the entire town and forced them to to walk off a cliff.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:03 pm

BearsAreBrown wrote:Why are people shitty on Lago because his vision has a semi-serious tone? Magic Music Bards just don't work in fiction with an even semi-serious tone(ala TLA).

I'm wondering why he's shitty on me because I think a D&D movie can't be played straight but needs to be bombastic and work on rule of cool in order for it to not be dismissed out of hand.

If nothing else, it needs to be well written, by people who take the making of it seriously, and given a good cast. I'm pretty sure the first two got none of that. Just because you're writing something over the top doesn't mean you can't take it seriously.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:38 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:Fuck it, Lago. You're deadset against bards being something that can be taken seriously, I think it could work. Not like a D&D cartoon, or a good movie will ever happen anyway.

As for TV Tropes, it's not "this one thing worked here, it'll work again!" it's "this is a recognizable reoccurring theme that pops up again and again, here are examples of it's strength, and this page explains how to use it."

TV Tropes isn't either of those things inasmuch as it's "this is a thing that happened" but Lago is being myopic again.

It's not that his vision has a semi-serious tone, Bears, it's that he has a specific idea and is inflexible in the weirdest ways about certain aspects that ostensibly are open to discourse (like vampires beforehand and now bards). Since the very beginning, this thread hasn't really been "Construction of a D&D Cartoon", but "Lago Should Just Fucking Write Something Vaguely D&D Specific Based On His Pet Concepts".

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:08 am

TVTropes' greatest weakness is probably that it specifically avoids talking about if and why certain tropes do or do not work in certain situations. It's great as a catalogue of tropes, shorthand references that can be used to quickly deliver information instead of stumbling over the longform definition of Rule Of Cool, Adaptation Decay, or Moral Event Horizon every time they come up, but it offers no practical advice on how to properly use any of these. It wants to be a storehouse of objectively verifiable data, and in that spirit it explicitly condemns the criticism of any work that is not already universally reviled, because that starts arguments which are not useful to its stated purpose.

More on topic, while it's true that Lago continues to indulge in his usual myopia, I don't think he's necessarily wrong this time around. Even if he has an ulterior motive, that doesn't necessarily mean the arguments he's presenting are automatically false. I genuinely don't see a bard as protagonist using the power of song to subdue his enemies as being something that will catch on with audiences. It's hard to say if Scott Pilgrim was killed by its poor marketing or its actual content, but there's no questioning that it died. That sort of over-the-topness might just not be popular with people in general right now.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:28 am

Prak_Anima wrote:You can't just right(sic) a bog standard fantasy flick, shove a mindflayer and some beholders in, staple the Dungeons and Dragons name on it and get a D&D movie. If that were the case, you could say Lord of the Rings was a Dungeons and Dragons movie that focused on an escort mission, and simply didn't have any product identity creatures for whatever reason.

But they weren't, were they? Maybe one could consider them 1st or 2nd edition D&D movies, but that's not my D&D, nor my generation's.

'You wouldn't understand, Grandpa' bullshit notwithstanding, precisely how would one not get such from that? I mean, I haven't looked at any of the novel lines in over a decade, but I can't imagine they cleave much more closely in that time to class spell lists and the like. Stick a gelatinous cube in Moria, add a little glow to examples of healing, and throw in a magic missile and it's almost definitionally a d&d movie. Most importantly, no matter whatever trope resonance arguments one makes, the required demographic for both a new ruleset and any tie in animation is kids who see The Hobbit and think it's neat.

I'm thinking now of writing up a bard chassis whose performance abilities are sometimes based on effective short rituals, the effects of which come online during stressful situations. The real advantage of such in a show, if put in the hands of a skillful arranger, is that the incidental music in the series can be referencing themes first expressed by the bard in-story in the background at the fucking tavern. A 15 second leitmotif from someone noodling around the campfire while another party member bitches about what it means to be a half-elf could be worked into a gather information montage, or spell research, or a fight scene, and be ideally subtle enough to not appeal jingly, while still encouraging correspondences. Then when the bard is playing Displacer Beast bagpipes during a mass combat scene the occasional overt effect is less jarring than with someone harnessing the power of rock with a wink to the audience.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:48 pm

I noticed that you guys stopped presenting counterpoints and just starting going 'waaaah, Lago, why do you gotta be so MEAN'.

Seriously, you haven't said why you think that something would be entertaining. You've done plenty of how, but you still haven't made the why.

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:I'm thinking now of writing up a bard chassis whose performance abilities are sometimes based on effective short rituals, the effects of which come online during stressful situations. The real advantage of such in a show, if put in the hands of a skillful arranger, is that the incidental music in the series can be referencing themes first expressed by the bard in-story in the background at the fucking tavern. A 15 second leitmotif from someone noodling around the campfire while another party member bitches about what it means to be a half-elf could be worked into a gather information montage, or spell research, or a fight scene, and be ideally subtle enough to not appeal jingly, while still encouraging correspondences. Then when the bard is playing Displacer Beast bagpipes during a mass combat scene the occasional overt effect is less jarring than with someone harnessing the power of rock with a wink to the audience.

Television shows, especially action-adventure fiction, already do that. And they do it without the need for an explicitly musical character. Why do you need to break the fourth wall in order to have a character that explicitly does that? It'd be seriously like having a character whose power was selective time compression to justify having montages.

Mask_D_H wrote:It's not that his vision has a semi-serious tone, Bears, it's that he has a specific idea and is inflexible in the weirdest ways about certain aspects that ostensibly are open to discourse (like vampires beforehand and now bards). Since the very beginning, this thread hasn't really been "Construction of a D&D Cartoon", but "Lago Should Just Fucking Write Something Vaguely D&D Specific Based On His Pet Concepts".

Oh, I get it. Your specific vision of a D&D cartoon is flexible and all-encompassing, my specific vision is myopic and self-satisfying.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Lago you incredible asshole, we've stopped giving examples as to why because you've closed your ears and gone "LALALALA that's stupid" or ignored them entirely. This happened with bards, this happened with vampires, this happened with the templated innocent, this happened with your transhumanism wank, this happened back in the first page with shipping and the main character being a spotlight stealing ubermench. That, and there are examples from Prak and K on this page and the one previous.

Every step of the way Frank, myself and others have had to drag you kicking and screaming to making examples that didn't end up myopic, insane, or both. You are completely fucking unreasonable at the most inopportune times and this thread is useful almost in spite of you.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:22 pm

Did Korra fail to light a fire under peoples' asses or something?

I haven't seen the show (though I've seen A:TLB) but I think that it's pretty weird that this thread has been left fallow -- especially since this thread is obviously a D&D fanfic adaptation of Avatar and Teen Titans.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:57 pm

This thread died because at every turn you have tried to turn a Saturday morning cartoon into a transparent and therefore ineffective propaganda piece for all your stupid pet issues, some of which aren't even universally agreed upon as being worthwhile things by the board at large and several of which are extremely unpalatable to the general public. Also because you used smilies unironically.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:02 am

Wait, which issues? I only remember the transhumanism one, and I'm pretty sure 90+% of the board is on board with that.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:12 am

There was also some stuff about hating on religion, and I recall something about vampires though I can't remember if there was any stupid moralizing attached to that or if it was generic brand myopia.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:15 am

Ah. Religion is 80+% of the board, I believe. I recall something about vampires, but I think it was basically "vampires would be an easy magic transhuman to work in, and has interesting, seldom explored subplots that it makes possible."

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:24 am

Yeah, the religion thing was mainly a "mainstream audiences will not appreciate this" deal. I thought I could recall the vampire thing being something where half the board was all "you are stupid and dumb" about it. Honestly, the stupid transhumanism thing where he insisted that the show not only be propaganda, but really bad propaganda that wouldn't fool a high school student, is easily the worst part of the debacle.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:09 am

I find it downright precious when people claim ownership of a thread and start acting as if they were the arbiter of the when and why of things. It's particularly egregious when one is discussing hypotheticals like "What if I weren't just some asshole and was a writer for a cartoon designed to exemplify a game system and help move product?" I suppose that if one is already indulging the urge to play make-believe that strongly then imagining oneself the creative director isn't much more of a stretch, but it certainly is hogging the sandbox.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:02 pm

How about this:

The kids from the original Dungeons and Dragons cartoon are grown up with children of their own and have made a small fortune by publishing a tabletop RPG based around their exploits, which somehow turned into a multimedia empire.

Then, suddenly, their family gathering attacked by Orcus, the Demon Prince of the Undead. The parents are kidnapped. One of the kids, who witnessed by event and tried to stop it, has been cursed and is now undead.

The kids are, of course, quite traumatized by this. Their parents are gone, thye've just learned that Dungeons and Dragons is real, and one of their number is now a walking corpse that craves the flesh and blood of the living. Being accosted by a Demon Prince is rarely fun. But they're soon approached by Venger, who explains that Orcus has murdered the Dungeon Master and taken the first of a series of artifacts that contain the power of Tharizdun, the Elder Elemental Eye, the oldest and most powerful force of evil in existence.

Orcus' intention is to collect all of these artifacts and destroy them in a ceremony that will unleash Tharizdun, and then kill the weakened god of destruction at the instant of its rebirth and take all of its power. Orcus probably won't win that fight, but it's bad either way because the unleashing of Tharizdun's awesome power will destroy all worlds, Earth included.

Orcus needs the parents to activate their weapons, you see, which Orcus stole when he murdered the Dungeon Master, and are the first of the artifacts powered by Tharizdun.

Venger then gives the kids new artifact weapons and classes, suited to the current edition of the RPG, so that they can fight against Orcus' forces.

This provides it with an artifact of the week set-up, where both the kids and Orcus have to race to retrieve an artifact first.
It also provides a really evil villain and a real motivation to fight (rescue the parents, uncurse the vampire/ghoul/whatever). It also provides an obvious endgame. When all the artifacts are collected there's going to be a big showdown.

Edit:
Also, if there is a Bard he should be voiced either by Jack Black or Meatloaf.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:11 pm

I like the bones of the setup, but the "ordinary people transported to fantasy world" thing has really fallen out of favor in the last decade or so, and I can't say I miss it.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:27 pm

"You're a level 12 Wizard, Harry. "

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:37 pm

A Bard could also be a combat one utilizing sound based attacks i guess?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:02 pm

The basic set up is cool, but... how many teenagers do you know/did you associate with, who'd be traumatized to learn that Dungeons and Dragons is real and they just got cool powers? Hell, the adults I know would find that totally fucking awesome. If it cost us some parents, I'm pretty sure we'd secretly consider that a worthy cost of admission.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:18 pm

The Skeletal Dragon that Orcus would be ridding would have a Frightful Presence DC of 38. That's pretty traumatizing.

Also, being metaphorically raped by Orcus, with possibly some actual rape thrown in offscreen after the cut to black and never mentioned, is not the most enjoyable way to obtain vampiric superpowers.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:14 am

hyzmarca wrote:"You're a level 12 Wizard, Harry. "

Sure, but that's learning that magic exists secretly in the real world. It's not the portal-to-another-dimension thing. You could go with a Power Rangers set up where the teenagers are in a mostly ordinary world that is selectively invaded by fantastical elements, and then they have to power up their class artifacts to go deal with the problem.

As far as fear and trauma and etc., movies lied to you, Prak. Adventures are not fun. Being repeatedly thrown into situations that have significant odds of killing you is, in fact, traumatic. I seriously doubt any of the protagonists will be lamenting the fact that they gained super powers, but I could very easily see several of them deciding it really isn't worth the war against the hordes of Orcus.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:00 am

I really really think that the idea of a D&D cartoon being about "People just like you transported to a magical land where they have awesome powers and cool adventures" is really on-the-nose. Why not just take or make a cool setting with cool characters and have cool adventures?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:49 am

Cham, check your inbox. Decided I didn't need to crap all over the thread with my response.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:22 am

Chamomile wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:"You're a level 12 Wizard, Harry. "
Sure, but that's learning that magic exists secretly in the real world. It's not the portal-to-another-dimension thing. You could go with a Power Rangers set up where the teenagers are in a mostly ordinary world that is selectively invaded by fantastical elements, and then they have to power up their class artifacts to go deal with the problem.

The Wizarding World is so far divorced from the real world that it might as well be another planet. Just like boarding school.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:54 am

Well, see, that's just it: It's just like boarding school, which is actually in the real world. More accurately it's like a foreign country. It's weird how it's hiding under the surface of a different country, but still, going to Hogsmeade is basically the same as going to like Johannesburg or something.

The problem with starting your characters in the modern world and then zapping them into a fantasy world is that it means your setup, where you explain where the modern world characters are from and who they are, is actually wasted space because that world does not interact with the world that the story actually takes place in at all. With a Masquerade world, the two worlds interact and only one of them is unaware. You could also do a thing where the two worlds are both unaware of one another but still have significant interaction, so that blowing up a building in one world causes its opposite to catch fire or something. But you can't do the thing where you spend the first fifteen minutes setting up one story and then the rest of the show telling some completely different story, just because you think having the protagonists be from the same world as your audience will somehow make them more compelling. As it happens, people empathize with other human beings because they face similar issues or have similar beliefs, not because they wear t-shirts instead of tunics.